Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome back everybody. This is Accountants 2.0. I'm Steve Perbich and with me, as always, is Ted Williamson. Hey, ted, how are you doing?

Speaker 2: 0:12

today, Hello everybody.

Speaker 1: 0:14

Fantastic.

Speaker 2: 0:15

Good, thank you.

Speaker 1: 0:16

Well, today is Step 7, Part 2, or Part B of networking and engagement.

Speaker 2: 0:25

We didn't know exactly what to call it, so we're just fumbling through it.

Speaker 1: 0:28

Yes, it's the art and the science and the work of networking and marketing. Part A, we were really emphasizing the online aspect and footprint of a new age accountancy. Today we're going to be focusing on networking. The assumption is you've got your online presence as good as you're going to be focusing on networking. The assumption is you've got your online presence as good as you're going to get it. And uh oh, horror of horrors, you might actually have to start interacting with people just outside of doing their, their returns and their business advisement, and there's an art to that and a few steps that you have to follow when getting out there. And also you will be leveraging your online presence as well.

Speaker 1: 1:10

The online presence kind of creates the background for you and your credibility when you do go meet individuals in various, I guess, wearing various hats, but initially it is also a niche driven and where your focus is, you should try to identify your target partnerships, or who I going to focus on and who do I want to form a deeper partnership with, as opposed to just an arm's length hello and part of the professional association, and then that'll govern the kind of the industry events and conferences you want to attend.

Speaker 1: 2:00

So, ted, from our experience when you're looking at potential events out there, and generally we're talking from a regional perspective. Initially, though, we, in our history, we've gone a little further afield, because we'd like to have a more of a national focus and a broader focus, which any new age accountant can approach as well. But what are some of the key ideas? You think is say, okay, I want to identify an event. What are the best kinds of events that we can? We can kind of come up in a checklist so that someone can say, okay, I should I attend that, should I not attend that? Like, what's your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 2:40

So I'm going to continue to beat the drum on niche, niche, niche.

Speaker 2: 2:45

So figure out who the heck you want to talk to and then figure out where they are and what message works, right. So you're doing that with your online marketing anyway. So you've kind of already done this. At this point, now you can actually use networking as your your initial way to grow, like not necessarily pay into online advertising, things like that, but still having that online presence. So you can do it in tandem. But I would say, before you actually get a networking type of strategy going, you need to niche and then, when you niche, you need to figure out where your people are. So if you're niching with landscapers again, national landscapers you're going to go to the National Landscaping Conference and you're either going to have a booth or you're just going to walk around and meet people. That's probably one of the best ways, because you're in a room full of your target market and they're all there for business, and so therefore, they're all there for business and so therefore, they're all you know, hot and warm leads, right? So, um, that is one one, uh, super important thing. The other thing is to differentiate. So, like, when you are going to these types of places, if you're, say, national or even regional, say, you go to your regional uh construction association or something like that, because you're dealing with contractors. Um, you want to make sure you differentiate. So why are you better than another accountant, why are you better than another bookkeeper, and what makes you different and why do they want to continue to talk to you? So a lot of the and this is all similar to how you build your online strategy, obviously, but you need to do it a little bit faster because you have, you know, your elevator pitch, um, so you need to differentiate what it is.

Speaker 2: 4:30

So, for example, when I started networking with my uh, with my accounting firm, then I started to grow it. What I did was I was actually going to, um, I was going to chamber events. I was going to this was you know a lot of people do this, uh, chamber events. Or I was going to chamber events. I was going to this was you know a lot of people do this chamber events. Or I was going to networking type of meetings like breakfasts and stuff like that, and my differentiator was we've been there because there's not that many accountants and bookkeepers that have actually owned a lot of the businesses that they service, right, so, and that got me. That made me grow pretty quickly. Just that message, uh, made me grow pretty quickly and it's gonna do the same with this company because we've been in your shoes as well, right?

Speaker 2: 5:13

So it doesn't that sound good, doesn't that sound right to actually be taking the advice that understands you and your client. So I'm not saying that to to to my horn. I'm saying that is that you can do the same thing. I'm not saying that you should say we've been there, but you should say we know you, we have done landscaping accounting for forever and we are the premier accounting firm for landscapers. And the reason you need to come to us is because we understand how to you know the labor involved in that and the labor laws, the. You know all the different costs, the vehicle expenses, things like that.

Speaker 2: 5:51

So there's a lot of things, a lot of aspects that you need to differentiate but make it very, very quick. So for me it was we've been there. That's a very, very quick statement, we've been there. And then they say what does that mean? Okay, so I've been in your shoes, I've owned your own businesses, just like yours, and so you can say you know whatever it might be like, we are the premier accountant for landscapers, for example. That is a good differentiator. They're going to. It's going to intrigue them. If they're landscapers, they're going to be like oh, I'm a landscaper and you're saying that you understand me. Great, I want to learn more. So generally, you're going to get more people talking to you if you are different than other people and you identify them and understand them.

Speaker 1: 6:36

So great. Now, ted, the picture you painted there is for that particular networking event is a kiosk oriented event, where it's an industry event, where, where your tenants has the option of actually having a setup or display. Now, taking it one level down of, say, professional organizations that have either weekly or monthly kind of get togethers, not necessarily setting up the your, your, your, your marketing display, and and and. That kind of get togethers, not necessarily setting up the your, your, your, marketing display, and and and that kind of thing, but more of an interactive event, say a dinner, maybe someone's going to speak on a certain topic. Those types of events run by professional organizations, when, when do you join them? Like what, what would motivate you to, say, join a professional organization in your region or, or broader to region or broader, where you feel that that might help consolidate your network or create relationships?

Speaker 2: 7:35

Like, for example, like a construction association kind of thing. Well, that would be one Like Michigan.

Speaker 1: 7:40

Well, if that was your niche, I would definitely recommend that someone do that Well if that was your niche.

Speaker 2: 7:45

I would definitely recommend that someone do that Like, for example, let's make it a little more generic like a chamber of commerce for your region Should you join the chamber of commerce where your headquarters is, for example, you should join them where you service people, right, basically, if you're in Michigan and you service businesses in Southfield, which is a suburb of Detroit, if you join the Southfield Chamber of Commerce, for example, that makes a lot of sense because the clients that you're servicing are in that area. Lot of sense because the clients that you're servicing are in that area. Um, so, and also, a lot of times, you can get like a, a regional, so a greater regional, uh, membership where you have access to multiple regions. Um, so you can do something like that as well. So, because, if you have multiple regions, you do you want to spend, you know, a couple hundred bucks on this chamber, in this chamber, in this chamber, or do you want to have one that's kind of an umbrella, right?

Speaker 1: 8:47

so, um, it depends on your region and if you is, if that's available or not now I might add that some professional associations offer perks uh, for insurance, shipping, various other things. So if you are looking at a professional association, maybe weigh some of the pros and cons. You might be be surprised that the fees to be a member might actually be offset by some of the advantages.

Speaker 2: 9:11

Yeah, a lot of times yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:12

Especially if you're a smaller business. Some of them have breaks even on insurance and things like that, which is advisable. So again, that would be if you're going to attend these regular events, and a lot of these organizations don't require you to be a member the first few times. They want you to test the water, see if it works. So you don't have to go sign up and join the Chamber of Commerce for somewhere upstate New York, just go see them, meet them and then, if you're a fit, then usually that's how that works.

Speaker 2: 9:46

But yeah, a lot of times. You can go to them, you can just pay. You just pay a little bit more to actually go to the event. You don't have to pay the monthly fee. You just so. If it's like 10 bucks to go to the event for a chamber member, it's 15 bucks for a non-chamber member especially if you have a speaker yes usually to cover the cost of the of that kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 10:01

So, whether you're at this trade show event or whether you're at a professional association meeting. So, ted, one thing that we discussed earlier that you'd like to comment on is, when you're introducing yourself or meeting someone, we like to say offer value first. Like don't just launch into your elevator speech and say this is what I'm offering. Like, I personally, when I'm working in these events, I like to just introduce myself and and listen to what you know. I like kind of find out you. You can say at the top of your head what you're into, but don't really get into the cell, listen and ask so what are some of your challenges? Because, uh, and then Because, and then I like to see whether I could even help them at all. Do you? What's your approach on that?

Speaker 2: 10:52

Yeah well, you have to add value at some point. Like there's no point in talking to them if you're useless to them too, right? So it's not just whether or not you know they're going to be a good client to you, it's whether or not you're actually going to be able to help them in whatever it is that they're doing. So I think absolutely you want to talk about, I want to like when I, when I would go to one. So actually I want to make a clarification.

Speaker 2: 11:18

So there's the professional associations, but there's also professional organizations. So the associations like CPA you know, AIC, you see, you know aic and all those things so. So the organizations are like the chamber, you know, things like that, or small business, associations, things.

Speaker 1: 11:29

Um, I just want to so, like when we're going there because it would be best practice type discussions, whereas the other ones you're actually actively interacting with potential clients yes, yeah yeah, so so let's make sure we're not going to like a, like a, a CPA conference and trying to get clients.

Speaker 2: 11:46

No, no, that's not where you do that. You'd have to be a pretty darn good accountant, if you sell to accountants. Yeah, exactly, so that's where we would go. Yeah, we need to talk to you if you need to do that. Yeah, you need to change your business model and work with us instead.

Speaker 2: 12:00

But, yeah, you need to change your business model and work with us instead, but, yeah, but so essentially, what I would do is look at how am I going to help these people, what are their challenges? Like you said, pretty much mirroring what you said, and I want to get them to a more personal setting, because when you're at these places, you are talking to a million people and you, if you, if you're experienced with, I'm sure, a lot of you are at some basic networking. Hopefully you take some, some things from this podcast that actually help you. You know, do a better job at it, yeah, and so you'll notice that there's always one or two people that will just sit there and soak up your time and just talk to you. So you need to find a way. First of all, don't be that guy or girl, don't be that person.

Speaker 2: 12:55

Yeah don't be that person where you're there soaking up their time because you're just going to frustrate them and they're going to walk away and don't engage with those people. They're going to walk away and don't engage with those people you need, because, if the whole purpose of it is to, unless you're there, to be social, sometimes you just want to be social and you don't really actually feel like being on, you know, on the ball, which is okay too, sometimes right, but most of the time, if you go to these, let's make it worth your money and and try to get some leads or or get some conversations going or some sort of value, even if it's just to improve your business and you actually finding people. But we want to make sure that you get to the point, you're quick and to the point, you're talking, you're listening and you're asking the right questions about their company what is it? Their need? Or about their industry hey, let's talk about your industry and then how you're identifying with them.

Speaker 2: 13:53

If you, if you understand that industry, oh, be like, oh, I had a client that you know also made these widgets and, uh, they actually found that when they changed their late you know, their um, their policies on labor, they were able to save so much money, whatever it might be. So giving those little snippets and that little value is really, really helpful. And then when you get them to a more personal meeting, I usually said, like let's talk further about your business and we can discuss each other. Maybe there's referral opportunities and we can discuss each other. Maybe there's referral opportunities, maybe there's some way that we can help each other and we can understand each other at the very least and get some sort of value in building our businesses.

Speaker 1: 14:36

Now you brought up a great point there Collaboration as opposed to the sale arrangement or some form of collaboration on a mini project where each side can show their stuff and then you can make the decision to make a deeper relationship, to build trust if you're just hungry and you're just going to them and like seething, you know, because you just want their money, yeah, they, they know, they see right through you.

Speaker 2: 15:03

So, um, and so you need to change your mindset. And it's not that I need to make a sale, sale, sale, sale, sale. It's that I need to. I need to create relationships. That's what networking is. It's creating relationships. Sales come with creating relationships. As long as you're you're still thinking, you know that that is, you know, an. An ultimate goal in the end is that sales will come. Otherwise, you're just creating relationships that can be not very fruitful. But you need to make sure that your mindset is in building relationships and those relationships to be fruitful. Not that you're selling to every single person, but you can help each other in certain ways.

Speaker 1: 15:43

I always view things in terms of synergy and integration. The sale is a. If we offer processes and services that compliment their existing operations or marketing, then you Again, you go on that collaborative viewpoint the deeper revenue will come because they're going to trust you. You're producing a result and then if there is a complimentary product or service, then away you go A little bit of a longer haul but at the same time the retention and the reward is far greater and less headaches. So that's, if you're going to an event and we kind of talk about that perspective.

Speaker 1: 16:31

Now, another thing you can do for networking is host and either a joint event or have your own webinars. And again we get back to that online activity. But it can be live with a hybrid. There could be some streaming, there could be live stuff, but now there are a bit of work to coordinate. So that's why online, which is what I recommend to do first, um. But if you have a um, a bricks and mortar set up or or a reasonable um locations that you can set up some type of uh back and forth like uh, what would be the themes or or how would I approach that? So, say, I'm a new age accountant and I do want to have a little event. Perhaps I have a topic I want to, or a new type of service or angle or a niche that I want to invite. What type of event would you recommend initially and in an ongoing?

Speaker 2: 17:25

Well, there's a whole bunch. So I'm not I'm not a specialist in running events, um, but I do know, like, like there are some pretty successful ones. A lot of them are usually niche specific, so and there's usually a couple people a couple, so not just you it's usually co-marketed. So an example example is working with a financial advisor in the area. So you're talking about tax planning, about, you know, estate planning. You know it depends on what you know, what the target market is interested in. Or real estate, say, people do real estate investments. You want to talk to them. You would bring in a high tier real estate investor who can talk about strategies and you can talk about the tax strategies and things like that that go along with that. So get creative.

Speaker 2: 18:20

But again, as part of the niche marketing and understanding your niche, you have to figure out what it is that they actually care about. So and or sorry, what interests them. Not necessarily what they care about, because a lot of times people care about things but they're just not interested in learning, they're just. You know, I understand that I want to, I that I want to retire one day, but I'm only 30. And so I don't really care at the moment I want to but I'm not going to to start doing my retirement planning when I, you know, own this landscaping company and I'm I'm young and and you know fully, you know I'm strong, I can make millions of dollars before I retire, but but guess what they could hurt themselves. I could do whatever millions of dollars before I retire, but but guess what they could hurt themselves. I could do whatever, right. So so that's not so so like that's not the topic that you want to talk about with that specific person. You have to look at your target market and understand.

Speaker 2: 19:15

So I would say, start with your, because it's cheaper when and when you're testing out what your messaging is and the type of event you want to do, start with a webinar. Start with a webinar before you jump into something else. Invite your clientele, invite your potential client to the webinar and again, it also depends on where they are. If they're not tech focused, then they might not want to do a webinar. And then at that point you would say you could host it at a private club. You could, because then it's a lower cost. A lot of times if you have a private club membership, you can get, you can get the room for free or at a low cost, because they make money on food and drinks. So that's one thing.

Speaker 2: 20:00

So, but I would say, test it with a webinar. Test the message, first of all to see whether or not people show up. Second of all, to see whether or not you're adding value. Um, so get them to actually talk to you about the event that you threw to see if they actually got some value. And if they did, you can then use that for your next webinar or your next event to say, hey, you know, johne, from whatever said, this webinar, you know, helped him understand the tax incentives of, of digital media. I don't know.

Speaker 1: 20:34

So yeah, so that's one thing.

Speaker 1: 20:36

One thing I found in my experience with webinars and you, you kind of hit it on the head. If, if, for your, if your target market is a is a service industry contractors, who tend to be much more physical in the trades. Long-term strategic pontification of financial planning in the long run usually doesn't resonate with that group, so that group wouldn't be a good sell. What I do is you try to get a six, six month window of what is this information they want, for instance, talking about filing or optimizing their tax return in this cycle, like immediate stuff. You're going to get their interest. So you do have to read your market or where you your niche with what you're going to be offering in your webinar. People want it. People will attend things if they know they can get a short-term solution.

Speaker 1: 21:29

Talking long-term, you can mention it in passing, but it doesn't hold a retention. Now if you say a webinar topic, spin up your business for resale or for that kind of thing, when do you leave the business and stuff that might get some interest. And again it depends on your, on your target market. But again, make the topic something that will incite action to attend. So I always like trying to keep a six month horizon based on the subject matter. Make it current and make it so is this, and the other thing too, it it inspires them to either form a deeper relationship with you, so it lets you create an action item, because if you create an urgency from your subject matter, if you talk about something that's going to happen 20 years from now, there's no incentive for them to move further. So all you did was waste time because you stated these long-term, grandioseose things, which might be completely true, totally verified, you know, save that to the university professors talking about long-term business strategy.

Speaker 1: 22:33

Ultimately, you are looking to build your business and create relationships that you can realize a return in a shorter run. So try to keep your subject matter with a six-month horizon tops for an action item that you're looking for. Because eventually you are going to lead that client Because remember, it's the accounting industry, new age accounting that exit strategy that's going to come later, after you've landed them as a client for a more immediate servicing and shown them the great result. Oh yeah, come the time that when you're supposed to give them the financial advisory whether you retain a professional or do it yourself you'll be talking about that, but then you already got them. They're already in a relationship, yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:12

Don't talk to them until you got them yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:15

Well, I mean that's. Another opportunity is, if you've got a decent book of business is to have constant webinars and constant events, because your own clients are also always. I would almost recommend that you always have a guest with you or co-market.

Speaker 1: 23:33

Oh, yeah, first.

Speaker 2: 23:34

of all because you are bringing potential clients to each other, so that makes a lot of sense, and not only your clients bringing your clients to there and then bringing their clients, but you have more power of message, right, so you can put it out there and people will see here's these two experts and professionals that can talk about different things.

Speaker 2: 23:59

So if you're doing an exit strategy and you're an accountant your own clients they're looking at you saying why do I want to go to that? I can just talk to you whenever I want and then I can have that discussion. But if you say, here's this specific person who understands this way better than me can talk about it, so you can upsell your exit strategy planning and they can upsell their financial planning part of it, and you're more likely to close that sale for yourself and for them, rather than them just going to you every so often and thinking that they can get free advice. You're more likely to have butts in the seats if they feel like there's more value, and it's hard to break it to you. As much as you are valued, you're also kind of taken advantage of, as you know, as you would know, so you need to create a little bit more foreseen value, true.

Speaker 1: 25:03

And unless you have a reputation already bringing people in cold to a webinar, or unless you have a person who's well-known as one of your guests or unless you have, like, a person who's well known as one of your guests, you're better off building your first guest list, your first webinar with existing clients or associated people in your network that you know have a high chance of saying yes. So whether you have the webinar yourself, attend one, attend an event or maintaining communication is also the key. No event is a one and done. There's always this follow-up. So not only follow-up, thanking somebody for their time to attend or we met, but with that communication you have to open the door to either a future meeting or set some form of goal or feedback. So say, you meet someone and there was a connection at an event.

Speaker 1: 26:03

It looks like there's some relevance. Really closing it right there is not realistic in a lot of cases. You do want to make sure that there's a solid commitment opportunity to meet again or communicate again. What. What is your best uh practice on that or the follow-up communication, to to either thank and facilitate that or or or close it uh, you mean like an event or say like we have like a one-on-one kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 26:34

Here. An example would be say you're at a large trade conference. Yeah, you listen to somebody. There was a connection, an exchange of business cards. But don't just exchange business cards, like for me, I like to commit to. Let's talk next Thursday, let's talk next thing.

Speaker 2: 26:55

Let's get on with it. I take my, my phone out, so I live by my calendar.

Speaker 2: 26:57

I take my phone out and I say you know, thanks for the card. Like, like, um, do you have your schedule on you? Why don't we just figure this out right now? Because we both know that we're going to talk to a million people right now. Uh, but if we, if we put this in, like, just be straight up and honest with people, say we know what's happening here.

Speaker 2: 27:15

So, um, we want to make sure that we don't waste each other's time and we we aren't just another, uh, another card in the rolodex, uh, we want to make sure that we are actually using this energy and moving forward with it. So, by by by, saying like we're going to be seeing lots of people, we're going to do lots of things we both have, we both understand that we're that us meeting is going to add value to each other. So why don't we just get this in? Why don't we just get this in the books right now? And? And then after that, you follow up and you say hey, it was great meeting you. You, I look forward to seeing you on thursday. Um, you know, uh, you can even give them a little prelude and just say you know, I usually like to bring up this and this and this, so you know anything you want, you want to know from me ahead of time. Shoot me a message or something like that, right?

Speaker 1: 28:04

so for our audience, ted sake, uh, we actually, uh, are a little bit more advanced than the average with our integrative uh um scheduling. Uh, when ted take out my phone, we actually have our calendars fully integrated with all of our commitments and when we actually do book something with somebody, we know exactly when we're available, we can commit to it and we have a lot of automated technology where the friendly follow-up actually can come to them and it's all kind of managed. So, if you really do want to be a powerhouse with this type of thing and really work a room and get really good leads and maintain them without a lot of background work because a lot of times you say this is great, but there's a reality You're at an event. Sometimes you're not even in the same town. You're coordinating your transportation, your hotel, the dinner. There's some other thing.

Speaker 1: 28:51

You're at an event. Sometimes you're not even in the same town. There's your coordinating your transportation, your hotel, the dinner, there's some other thing you're going to go to and you're having a lot of fun. It's very easy to say, yeah, yeah, I'll take that, you're not going to get to it, you're not going to get to it, right, and you're going to have typos and it'll be back and forth. If you have the ability to use a more strategic system to kind of lock them in and do that nurturing and get them committed, you'll be able to maybe meet four or five people from that event, as opposed to just one and a few cards sitting in your jacket pocket that you hand to either your intern, throw it on your desk and you're never jealous.

Speaker 2: 29:30

Well, I mean, that's one thing that happens, but you think about it. If you go to an event or like a trade show or anything right, who are the people that are calling you after the fact? So if you book it on the spot, you're not mixed in with all of these salespeople, these multi-level marketing people that all got your card and they're all calling you back. So you've already booked it in, You've. You're separated from that pack.

Speaker 2: 29:56

It's still important, still important to follow up with those people. You weren't able to book it, but remember that you're going to be in that list of of the multi-level marketers and the you know, all of those kinds of people. Not to say that it's not still worth it, but you want to have a better, you know a better, a better view of that. So you don't want to be like, hey, I met you at this chamber event, you remember? So why don't we just get together and blah blah, blah, blah? Or, you know, don't don't do like a cold sale message either, just right yourself.

Speaker 2: 30:33

Yeah, yeah, but like, if you, if you, hopefully you have a memory I have a horrible memory, just fyi but hopefully if you have a good memory, um, you can actually pull up something from that conversation. So the because they probably talked to 20 or 30 people they might not remember exactly what they talked about with you and that is another reason why it's good to get that booked in right away is because they're going to remember the person that they booked with. They're not going to remember the person that they booked with. They're not going to remember just somebody that they had a random conversation with and they might've forgot that conversation completely by the time. You know, a week later you follow up or something. Follow up right away. Get it done.

Speaker 1: 31:05

Well, my final nugget I'm going to give on, that is, if you're working with a team or you're the subordinate of a manager or you're the business owner, that methodology for booking stuff through some type of electronic logic or a supporting system gives you actually some hard data that you can actually gauge how successful the attendance was of these events. The attendance was of these events. So you actually have hard numbers saying, hey, if we go to this event, we get five leads from the event and that leads to this, and then you can justify doing it. If you never really keep hard records, like it's, like it's hard to justify the expense sometimes and then you choose not to go and you're going to lose opportunity. So that's my nugget. Or just for yourself just know how effective you're reading and then tracking expenses and applying it to various projects and all that good accounting stuff kind of comes into the picture too.

Speaker 2: 32:18

It does. Yeah, you know what I want to, because it sounds like we talk about a lot of stuff. I'd like to just talk about somebody starting out, Somebody starting out and becoming a new age accountant. There's a lot to obviously, as you all know, if you've been, you've been listening or watching us there's a lot involved in in in, in being, first of all, owning your own firm. Second of all, doing it as a new age firm, where it's like, setting it up that way there's a little bit of work involved. No, setting it up that way there's a little bit of work involved, no lie, but once you do, it's almost no work, right? So, like you're, you're living. You're living a great life. It's easier as long as you understand all the things and you and you, you move in that direction. So let's let's talk about somebody who's starting from scratch. They are moving into being a new age, new age accountant or new age bookkeeper and they are looking at how am I going to start growing right away? How am I going to start doing that? So, networking.

Speaker 2: 33:22

So step seven is crucial. And when it comes to how am I going to get started right away, so, first of all, going to get started right away. So, first of all, 7A, where you need to first of all have your online presence and monitor and manage your communications, is the first step. The second step is what kind of events are you going to do right away?

Speaker 2: 33:45

Now, you want a niche and you want to do all of that. That's great, but we need to have dollars in our bank account, and so some people would like to just get started right away, go to chamber events, stuff like that. So if you are a regional accountant and you just want to be specific to an area, not specific to a niche, then, like a chamber, you know the chamber and and and business organizations and stuff like that are a great, great starting point. But as you grow, you can move into things like you know private clubs and stuff like that. So you usually you see these larger companies. They are larger firms, they're usually in like like the country clubs and stuff like that, and they're getting larger accounts and, but they have a lot of a but they have a lot of stuff behind them. So a lot of what we're talking about is actually those startup accounting and book.